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The visitor on this episode of Radio Atlantic wouldn’t describe herself as “enjoyable at events,” however at the least she is aware of it. “I’ve by no means actually favored my character,” wrote Olga Khazan in 2022, “and different folks don’t prefer it both.” A couple of years in the past, Khazan got down to change her character, a activity many individuals suppose is unattainable. As Khazan explains, within the late 1800s, William James, who is taken into account the daddy of recent psychology, developed a concept that an individual’s character is about in plaster round age 30. James himself was depressive and neurotic, and he suffered from what he referred to as “soul-sickness.” Fortunately, he was additionally incorrect. Later analysis confirmed that individuals can, in truth, shift even core elements of their character, in the event that they work at it systematically.
After consulting with the consultants on character plasticity after which setting a deadline, Khazan put herself via an intense experiment supposed to make herself extra likeable, to herself and others. Her evaluations weren’t mushy and subjective however numerical; Khazan examined and scored herself on a variety of key character traits at first and finish of the experiment. On this episode, Khazan and I speak about two of these traits: extroversion and neuroticism. Khazan shares how for her ebook Me, However Higher, she dragged herself to improv lessons and meditation classes, and the way having a child threw a kink in her experiment.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: There may be one factor I actually don’t like about myself. I imply, there are a number of, however I’m solely going to inform you about this one proper now. It may be probably the most lovely day—like springtime, cherry blossoms each course you look—and instantly, instinctively, my thoughts will scan for the one factor fallacious. Like, Gross! There’s pollen throughout that automobile.
I’ve undoubtedly tried through the years to do this or that to counteract it, like domesticate a extra constructive mindset or begin my day by saying three issues I’m grateful for. However I feel there’s simply part of me that thinks, Effectively, that’s simply how Hanna is, like there’s some core of Hanna Rosin, whether or not it’s genetic or epigenetic or discovered, that may all the time scan for the unfavorable.
I’m Hanna Rosin. That is Radio Atlantic, and immediately we’re speaking about character—what it’s and whether or not it’s one thing you possibly can truly change.
Olga Khazan: So, many a long time in the past, William James did provide you with this concept that character is form of set like plaster at age 30, and it by no means softens once more after age 30.
Rosin: That’s workers author Olga Khazan. And the William James she’s speaking about is taken into account the daddy of American psychology. However his view of character doesn’t maintain as much as trendy scrutiny.
Khazan: There wasn’t a complete lot of analysis on character or psychology. It simply wasn’t actually a developed science. So when researchers began doing extra trendy research about this, what they discovered, after following the identical group of individuals for many years and a long time, is that most individuals truly do change, and in the event that they do stuff to attempt to change, they sort of change even quicker.
Rosin: Like me, Olga had issues about her character that she wished she might change. And when she discovered that it’s not so set in stone, she thought she’d give it a attempt. She made it a monthslong challenge, an experiment. And he or she wrote about it in a brand new ebook referred to as Me, However Higher.
[Music]
Rosin: So I like this concept. I discover it very inspiring, as I’m positive lots of people do. Why did you begin it? Like, clearly, there have been issues about your self that you just didn’t like—which there are issues about all of us that we don’t like, however what was it in your case?
Khazan: Yeah, so on high of not liking sure issues about myself, one thing that I observed is that I simply wasn’t very comfortable, and I wasn’t having fun with my life to the extent that I believed that I might.
So what began this was I had only a actually tough day. I used to be in Miami in December, so undoubtedly nothing to complain about environment-wise. I needed to go get skilled images taken for our job, and I needed to get a haircut earlier than the images had been taken. And so I am going; I ebook a hair appointment. This haircut is horrible. It’s most likely one of many worst haircuts I’ve ever gotten in my life.
Rosin: Particulars. Particulars. Was it a bang drawback?
Khazan: It wasn’t a bang drawback. Okay, I attempt to emphasize each time I get my hair minimize that my hair doesn’t take layers properly. And so they all the time do layers, regardless of what I explicitly mentioned. And possibly I want to simply be extra easy about it. However anyway—so there was like a mushrooming impact due to the try at layers.
Rosin: (Laughs.) I’m sorry. I’m sorry, yeah.
Khazan: (Laughs.) Anyway, so I’m leaving the hairstylist’s. I’m like, Oh my God. I look horrible. I needed to go on to the photograph session, the place I received skilled images taken that appeared actually unhealthy, in my view, after which I needed to, instantly, drive on to the grocery retailer to get a bunch of groceries for dinner that night time.
And as I used to be driving, I went the fallacious method and received caught on this island that cruise ships launch from. Then, as soon as I recovered from that, I received to the grocery retailer, and as I used to be leaving, my buying cart locked. And I needed to drag the buying cart throughout the parking zone to my automobile. And whereas this all was occurring, my boss was Slacking me edits on a narrative. So I do these edits sitting on this scorching automobile. I drive on, I get again to the Airbnb, and I simply freak out.
Like, I actually simply had a meltdown—not a panic assault, however crying, chugging wine, simply screaming, like, I hate everybody. And I settled down, ultimately, and I used to be form of like, Why do I react so badly to issues which might be sort of minor? Truthfully, simply even recounting that day as a brand new mum or dad, I’m sort of like, Eh, so. That’s unhealthy, however that’s not that unhealthy.
And I sort of realized that it was my character that was making days like that worse than they needed to be, that was undermining my happiness in these moments.
Rosin: Okay, I simply wanna query that for one second: To start with, I’m sorry you had that day. It sucks, and I perceive you simply wish to be pissed off. Like, you don’t wanna be screaming and crying. You don’t wish to have a breakdown. You simply wanna be casually pissed off. I feel lots of people, when they’re unhappy or they really feel sad, the normal route is: See a shrink. Get on meds. You recognize—no matter—journal.
I don’t suppose that I’d have thought, Okay, it’s my precise character. Like, to take a look at your self, break your character down, I imply, it’s fascinating. It was an fascinating response you had, and I’m questioning the way you even knew in that second to take a look at your self and suppose, Oh, it’s my character.
Khazan: Yeah, so, truly, seeing a shrink and taking remedy do change your character, additionally.
Rosin: Fascinating!
Khazan: And that’s to say that character change is sort of the basis of loads of various kinds of private progress and self-improvement. So what I used to be sort of describing simply now could be a excessive degree of neuroticism, which I did have.
And so bringing that down is character change. And a technique to do this is thru remedy and medicines. However I feel sort of past simply neuroticism, I used to be additionally simply sort of sad with different elements of my life. Like, I actually simply didn’t socialize a lot. I sort of reflexively didn’t socialize.
I didn’t have loads of mates, which to me was a special factor than neuroticism. After which I sort of simply was actually snippy with my boyfriend on the time—my husband now—and actually, would get in loads of fights with my mates, which is, like, this different trait referred to as “agreeableness.”
So I don’t know. It felt extra, like, all-encompassing than simply the I must deal with my stress higher.
Rosin: Proper. Okay. So that you’ve been mentioning a number of the predominant traits that you just define in your ebook. Are you able to simply lay out the totally different elements so we are able to observe you thru this experiment?
Khazan: So there’s 5 traits that make up character, and all of us have these 5 traits inside us. And they are often remembered with the acronym OCEAN.
So it’s o for “openness to experiences,” which is like creativity and imaginativeness; c for “conscientiousness,” which is like being on time, being tremendous organized, being actually diligent; e for “extroversion,” so being sociable, cheerful, lively; c for “agreeableness,” which is being heat and empathetic and trusting; and n for “neuroticism,” which is being neurotic, being anxious and depressed.
Rosin: Okay. In order that’s the way you began to interrupt your personal issues down. Like, there’s this bucket, that bucket, that bucket. We received’t do the entire OCEAN of character, however I actually wish to speak about a couple of that curiosity me probably the most. Possibly we’ll begin with extroversion, as a result of being outgoing is a typical aim.
Plenty of folks say, Oh, I wish to have extra mates, significantly post-pandemic. How extroverted had been you initially of this course of?
Khazan: Let me lookup my actual rating.
Rosin: Oh, there have been scores?
Khazan: Sure!
Rosin: Okay, so that you truly get a quantity.
Khazan: Yeah, while you take the character check I used to be taking, you do get a quantity.
Rosin: That’s a little bit brutal.
Khazan: Yeah. Oh, okay—I scored within the twenty third percentile, which may be very low, particularly when it got here to being pleasant or cheerful.
Rosin: Uh-huh. Fascinating. Okay. (Laughs.) While you first received that quantity, how did that really feel?
Khazan: I used to be like, That checks out.
Rosin: (Laughs.) Uh-huh. You weren’t stunned. Okay. So how did you go about this? Like, that’s the sort of factor the place somebody would say, Okay, properly, I’m simply not that extroverted, and one street could be acceptance: I’m simply not that extroverted. I’m going to remain residence and watch TV lots.
Khazan: Yeah, and I did that street for a very long time. So one sort of fascinating twist right here is that when psychologists take a bunch of introverts they usually inform them, Exit and act like extroverts for a couple of minutes. Go socialize. Go hang around. After which they arrive again they usually’re like, How do you are feeling? They really say they really feel happier. And so they additionally say they really feel extra like themselves.
Rosin: One thing about your saying that makes me nervous. I feel it’s simply due to the Susan Cain ebook Quiet, the place we’ve come to understand the ability of introverts, you already know? What do you say about that?
Khazan: So yeah, I actually, actually favored the ebook Quiet, and I actually like Susan Cain personally. I simply suppose that there are advantages for introverts to often act like extroverts. I feel it’s okay to nonetheless establish as an introvert and to understand all the perks that include that, however to additionally sometimes have the ability to at the least attempt on this extra outgoing character trait.
Rosin: So while you got down to attempt to change this a part of your self, you already know, elevate your rating—we’ll simply put it that method, concretely—had been you saying to your self, I wish to change Olga and make Olga not an introvert? Or, I wish to attempt on extraversion generally, like a fancy dress? Or, I wish to change my rating? Like, what was your aim?
Khazan: My aim was to vary my rating, so to be extra extroverted. I didn’t suppose it might work properly sufficient to make me an extrovert. Ultimately, I feel my newest check that I took did put me technically within the extrovert class. However I didn’t suppose that it might work that properly.
Rosin: Okay. So how did you do it?
Khazan: I signed up for a bunch of actions and went to them. I signed up for improv comedy, a crusing membership, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a celebration at my home for the primary time.
Rosin: Wow. And all of the whereas, simply so folks perceive what this sort of experiment is like, in case they wish to attempt it, are you uncomfortable? Like, absolutely, you’re going towards your, what you initially referred to as, pure inclinations.
Khazan: So I ended up doing improv for about eight months or so. And possibly for the primary six months, each time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you nearly want that you could possibly get in a automobile accident on the best way there so that you just wouldn’t need to go.
Rosin: That’s excessive. I completely sympathize. I perceive. Yeah.
Khazan: Like, is there any solution to get out of this? Any method? Like, Please, God, don’t make me go. Like, I’ve excessive stage fright. And so that you get there, and also you’re all sitting in a circle, after which in some unspecified time in the future you rise up, and also you simply begin doing improv with the opposite people who find themselves there.
Rosin: And the rationale it helps you grow to be extroverted is as a result of it’s relational. Like, you must be deeply attuned to this complete stranger. You must be on the stage. You must carry out. Like, it simply forces you into actions which might be extroverted.
Khazan: Oh, sure, and it makes you grow to be far more snug with chaos as a result of on a regular basis dialog is chaotic, however improv is much more chaotic than that.
Rosin: Proper. After which, so let’s say the twentieth time you’re going to improv class, does the preliminary dread fade, or it’s all the time that cycle?
Khazan: I feel, over time, it did fade, however even earlier than it utterly went away naturally, I’d begin to really feel it, and I’d sort of inform myself, like, No, you’re gonna be positive. It’s simply improv. It’s okay—you’re gonna really feel good after. You recognize, it’s similar to how I discuss to my son now. It’s like, No, you want this system. That is the great variety. (Laughs.)
Rosin: That’s so humorous. So that is tough to know. So by the tip, you’re doing it with a little bit bit much less dread. You’re nonetheless speaking your self into it. You’re ready to do it, so that you’re not avoiding it; you’re doing it. You’re, at instances, having fun with it, nevertheless it’s nonetheless not your pure inclination.
Khazan: So I’d say it’s to not do improv, nevertheless it’s to attach with different folks once I’m feeling down. Like, if I’m feeling remoted and withdrawn, I don’t really feel like the answer is simply to spend extra time on my own. I really feel prefer it’s to attach with others and form of get out of my head a little bit.
Rosin: However that really appears revolutionary. Like, when you consider one in every of our largest issues now, which is lack of connection, the thought which you could truly work at it, you already know, method it like a challenge and alter it slowly, such that what you bought—okay, possibly you’re not going to be on SNL, in order that’s not your future—however what does change is that you just don’t go deeper into your self when you find yourself feeling no matter you’re feeling. Like, you search some sort of connection. And analysis does present that that’s wholesome.
Khazan: Yeah, and that’s sort of the science behind why extroverts have a tendency to point out up as happier. They sort of simply spend loads of time round different folks, and different folks are inclined to make us comfortable, regardless that we are able to all consider instances when different folks haven’t made us comfortable.
However, you already know, I’m actually glad I did that earlier than having a child, as a result of I feel that my method to new motherhood would have been completely totally different in any other case and rather more isolating if I hadn’t completed this experiment to see, Okay, truly, being round others and connecting socially, and even in a method that’s foolish and doesn’t completely make sense is, like, nonetheless a superb factor.
Rosin: Oh, that’s superb. What’s your extroversion rating now?
Khazan: Proper now, my extroversion—it says it’s very excessive.
Rosin: Very excessive. So it went from very low to very excessive.
Khazan: Sure, it’s not within the high 10 p.c. I’d say it’s most likely, like—I don’t know—sixtieth percentile now.
Rosin: I do know, however you’re getting all bold now. Like, you wish to be within the high ten p.c.
Khazan: I didn’t get into the Harvard of extroversion. (Laughs.)
Rosin: Precisely. (Laughs.)
Khazan: However yeah.
Rosin: That’s superb. Okay. Very, very impressed. And I really feel like folks ought to attempt it.
[Music]
Rosin: In order that was extroversion—the e in OCEAN. After the break, Olga takes us via one other part of her ebook: the n—the unfavorable, nervous, capital-n “Neurotics.”
[Break]
Rosin: Okay. Let’s transfer on to the second trait that I wish to speak about, which is neuroticism, the n of OCEAN. That’s one which I feel many individuals wish to change about themselves, myself included. What did your start line there appear to be?
Khazan: I feel I scored greater than, like, actually everybody else on earth.
Rosin: (Laughs.)
Khazan: Oh, I used to be within the 94th percentile.
Rosin: So you probably did get into the Harvard of neuroticism.
Khazan: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I’m graduating.
Rosin: Wonderful. And we’re laughing, however the feeling—I imply, everybody’s model of neurotic is totally different, however are you able to discuss a little bit bit about your personal model? Like, what’s it that bothered you about your neuroticism?
Khazan: So I used to be principally all the time anxious. Like, there simply wasn’t a time once I wasn’t anxious. I used to be continually eager about stuff sooner or later that would go fallacious, or stuff up to now that did go fallacious, and, like, Why did I permit it to go fallacious? When good issues would occur, there was no dwelling within the second or appreciating the great factor.
It was, like, onto the subsequent factor that would go fallacious. Or like, Oh, this sundown is nice, however the one yesterday was higher. You recognize, like on trip, we’d get to some lovely attraction or landmark of some variety, and I’d be like, Okay, what’s subsequent?
Rosin: Proper.
Khazan: That sort of factor. Yeah.
Rosin: So that you began out with Harvard-level, high-baseline neuroticism. This one is difficult to face, I’ll say, so what was your strategy of attempting to vary it?
Khazan: So I adopted this one research that’s been completed on character change, however loads of these ideas had been, like, loads of gratitude journaling—and I did try this—however loads of it was additionally meditation.
Rosin: Ugh.
Khazan: —which, I do know.
Rosin: Is there anything?
Khazan: I do know. I used to be, like, Significantly? I used to be diving so deep into the psychology. Is there one thing the place I can, like, stroll backwards for a mile and be cured?
Rosin: You understand how there are headlines generally which might be like: “That is the One Factor You Have to Do.” It’s all the time meditation. So I’m like, You’re not stunning me on this headline.
Khazan: Sure, sure. Yeah, it’s all the time meditation. It was certainly meditation. So it was a meditation class that I took. It was, like, sort of like Buddhism for Dummies—like, in the course of the day, we’d all collect and they might do that PowerPoint with sort of very primary Buddhist concepts.
After which, we needed to meditate for 45 minutes a day.
[Music]
Rosin: As newbies?
Khazan: Sure.
Rosin: That’s an intimidating period of time.
Khazan: It was actually, actually, actually exhausting. I actually don’t suppose I might do it with a child now. I don’t actually have 45 minutes anymore. However I feel if persons are attempting this at residence, I feel they need to begin with method much less, as a result of it could really feel so daunting that you just’re like, Why even trouble? You recognize? And there’s loads of meditations on the market that I additionally discovered efficient which might be a lot shorter, like 10 or quarter-hour.
Rosin: So that you, beginning out because the individual with excessive neuroticism, face meditation as an individual who sees meditation everywhere in the tradition, so there’s already a barrier to entry. So how do you slide into that one? As a result of I truly perceive the advantages of meditation; I simply additionally perceive the cultural ubiquity of meditation and, thus, the resistance to it, you already know? So how do you sneak your method in in order that it’s useful?
Khazan: Yeah, so I principally was, like, dragged kicking and screaming. And in contrast to with improv, I didn’t get pleasure from it at any level. So we’d have these cellphone calls with our meditation instructor to see how issues had been going, and principally all my cellphone calls had been all about how a lot I hated meditation.
Rosin: Which is possibly neurotic, like—
Khazan: I’m not doing it proper. I used to be like, Can I hearken to music? Can I hearken to a podcast? Can I wash the dishes? She’s like, No, you could be there and, like, sit with no matter comes up. And no matter stuff she mentioned, I used to be like, That doesn’t make any sense.
We had an all-day meditation retreat, the place all we did was meditate all day. It was, like, the worst day of my life. I hated it a lot, like—oh my God. And so they had been—at one level I feel they received pissed off with me, as a result of they’re like: You sound such as you’re striving, and also you’re not alleged to try in meditation.
And I used to be like, Yeah, after all I’m striving. So, yeah, it was simply so exhausting and so painful. And it labored.
Rosin: Whoa! Okay, so are you able to describe how the flip occurred? I feel many individuals would wish to know.
Khazan: So I don’t suppose there ever was a flip. I form of hated it all through the retreat. After which I took the check not lengthy after the retreat. And my neuroticism had truly fallen a lot that it was thought-about low. It was within the thirty ninth percentile.
Rosin: Wait—you went from 97 p.c to low?
Khazan: Yeah, I not scored, like, extraordinarily excessive or no matter it was. However I’ll say, it was principally due to a change in my despair rating. Like, so I’ve actually, actually excessive nervousness, and I additionally had excessive despair, and my despair went down by lots, and my nervousness additionally went down a little bit however not by as a lot.
Rosin: And what do you attribute that to? I imply, that’s superb. Like, you already know, happening on despair or nervousness is implausible. So what do you attribute it to? Do you attribute it to the meditation or to the act of specializing in your self for some period of time so that you just’re taking your despair significantly, or what was it?
Khazan: So two-part reply right here. One is that—so this class that I took referred to as MBSR has gone head-to-head with the antidepressant Lexapro, and it truly works, allegedly, in addition to Lexapro. So there’s sort of precedent for it bringing down nervousness and despair.
And I feel the reply—possibly it was the meditation simply working within the background, like sweeping away the cobwebs or no matter with out me noticing. You recognize, since you’re supposed to simply let your ideas go like clouds or no matter. However I feel the extra sort of instantly efficacious factor was that these Buddhism for Dummies classes had been very useful for me.
Although I believed they had been sort of silly, I discovered them actually useful. And particularly, my meditation instructor would all the time say, Issues occur that we don’t like. And I noticed that I used to be somebody who was very stuffed with self-blame for issues not going the best way they had been, quote-unquote, “supposed” to go.
Like getting caught in site visitors—I’d get this overwhelming rage at myself each time I used to be caught in site visitors. And it was—it’s site visitors. Like, you already know, there’s nothing you are able to do about it. However I noticed that I had this, I don’t know, fallacious picture of different folks’s lives as good as a result of they handle them completely, and that I’m the one one who can’t.
And for some purpose, this, like, PowerPoint-focused Buddhism class helped me do away with a few of that.
Rosin: I imagine every part the Buddhists say. I’ve by no means discovered any of it unhelpful. It’s all the time extremely useful if I can simply get myself to sit down down and concentrate.
Khazan: Sure.
Rosin: Okay, so principally, this experiment was profitable for you.
Khazan: Sure, sure.
Rosin: And when did you do it?
Khazan: I did this proper earlier than I received pregnant.
Rosin: All proper. In order that’s an necessary marker. So that will be, like, two years in the past you probably did this experiment. Now what has stayed with you about it?
Khazan: S I’ll say that proper after I had Evan, my scores received all—like, I’m taking a look at my graphs of my scores, and there’s like an enormous dip on all of them proper after the newborn got here, as a result of postpartum despair can have an effect on all these items. Additionally, you’re not socializing, you’re not being good, you’re not being conscientious, you’re not showering in that instant postpartum interval.
So all of them crashed and burned proper after the newborn got here. However I truly only in the near past took the exams once more. You recognize, he’s 1-year-old now, and I simply took them once more, like, a month in the past. And so they truly went again up—not fairly to the extent as they had been once I was doing the ebook, however again up for probably the most half, I’d say, throughout all of the traits.
And I feel that’s simply because I’ve been ready recently to get again extra into a few of what I used to be doing for the ebook, not all of them.
Rosin: Fascinating. Okay. So the way you’re utilizing this in your life, this complete experiment that you just did, is: To start with, it satisfied you which you could change issues about parts of your character. You recognize that to be true now. And so you have got these markers, they usually primarily function objectives.
And when you’re discovering your self to be sad, then you possibly can work on one or one other of those objectives. Like, it simply lets you be extra self-aware, discover issues about your self. And it provides you some very concrete instruments to repair it.
Khazan: Yeah, that’s how I see it. And that’s—I imply, Nate Hudson, the researcher whose work sort of varieties the spine of the ebook, he actually describes character traits as instruments. Like, they enable you get what you need in life. Which is why I sort of shrink back from the, like, Don’t change your character when you like your self, as a result of, you already know, I favored myself earlier than, and I like myself now. However now I really feel like I understand how to get extra out of life.
Rosin: That’s actually, actually fascinating. You wouldn’t have minded your self when you’d been a considerably remoted mom who didn’t see that many moms.
Khazan: Yeah, I don’t suppose I’d’ve. You recognize, I feel I’d have had a a lot lonelier and extra annoying postpartum expertise. I feel I’d have simply thought that’s what it’s like.
Rosin: Like, that’s Olga’s model of parenting, and that’s okay. Like, you wouldn’t have hated your self for it.
Khazan: Yeah, precisely. However as a substitute what I did is I joined this new-moms group, and generally I simply have made extra of a degree of reaching out to different new mothers, and simply sort of getting collectively as a lot as attainable, and even simply retaining in contact over WhatsApp or no matter—sharing experiences or simply, like, What the hell is that this? Is that this regular? That kind of stuff.
That has actually made it a lot much less unhealthy, I feel, and fewer isolating. Like, I wouldn’t say that I’ve a village, nevertheless it’s simply good to not really feel such as you’re the one individual on the planet who’s ever had a child.
Rosin: Yeah. So you have got the benefit of going into motherhood with all of this understanding of character. Have you ever discovered your self speaking about your son or eager about your son with a few of this analysis in thoughts?
Khazan: Yeah, you already know, Evan may be very smiley, and he’s simply very comfortable. He smiles very simply. He smiles at folks he is aware of and likes. And my dad and mom inform me that I used to be not like that. (Laughs.)
Rosin: (Laughs.) Thanks, Mother. Yeah.
Khazan: So the best way I speak about it, I’m like, Oh, he will get that from my husband, Wealthy. And I don’t know. I’m similar to, I actually—sorry, I’m attempting to not choke up.
Rosin: That’s okay.
Khazan: I actually, like, wish to not mess that up for him. Like, I wish to—I don’t know. Sorry.
Rosin: No, that’s okay. You wish to preserve him comfortable.
Khazan: Yeah, not preserve him comfortable, however I hope that that continues. I don’t know.
Rosin: Yeah. No, I believed you had been going someplace totally different. I believed what you had been going to say is, I don’t wish to take into consideration his character as mounted. Like, I wish to permit him—like, if he needs to be sad, or if he needs to be a special method, or throw a mood tantrum, that’s okay. Like, I’ll take into account that we are able to, you already know, transfer in direction of a aim later.
However I feel what you’re saying is extra easy and exquisite, and I recognize that. I’m sorry that your mother was—it was like when my mother used to inform me how a lot cuter my brother was than me as a child, each single time we have a look at child footage.
Khazan: Pretty.
Rosin: Yeah. Effectively, Olga, thanks a lot. I really feel like this can encourage lots of people to attempt it. So thanks a lot for writing it down.
Khazan: Yeah, completely. Thanks a lot for having me on.
[Music]
Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. We had engineering help from Rob Smierciak and fact-checking by Genevieve Finn. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
Listeners, when you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, keep in mind you possibly can help our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists while you subscribe to The Atlantic at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
I’m Hanna Rosin. Thanks for listening.
